EPISODE 15: GERALDINE AND CINDY

[Andy Miles] Hello and welcome to “Akathisia Stories,” a podcast co-production of MISSD and Studio C.

MISSD, the Medication-Induced Suicide Prevention and Education Foundation in Memory of Stewart Dolin, is a unique nonprofit organization dedicated to honoring the memory of Stewart and other victims of akathisia by raising awareness and educating the public about the dangers of akathisia. MISSD aims to ensure that people suffering from akathisia's symptoms are accurately diagnosed so that needless deaths are prevented. The foundation advocates truth in disclosure, honesty in reporting, and legitimate drug trials.

On this episode, we hear from Geraldine and her daughter, Cindy. In 2015 Geraldine's ex-husband, Louis, Cindy's dad, ended his life at age 63, the victim of prescription drug-induced akathisia.

[Geraldine] The fact that the doctors kept him on the drugs and didn’t – you know, they don’t brush up and figure out there’s got to be a better way. We can’t just keep doubling up the medication because this man is frantic and calling them at different hours, you know, all hours.
[Cindy] He was never suicidal until the akathisia. You know, he did struggle obviously with the depression and anxiety but he never talked about not being able to go on or suicide or anything like that until it was ramped up with the akathisia.

[Andy Miles] We’ll hear their full story in a moment.

It's been a busy and productive spring for MISSD. Last month our akathisia awareness campaign crossed the pond to the London Underground. More than 1,000 train ads running on the Tube were featured in several newspapers and fueled a Twitter storm that emphasized the universal need for akathisia awareness and medical training. This month is Mental Health Awareness Month and a renewed time to highlight that akathisia can cause adverse psychiatric symptoms that are often misdiagnosed and mistreated. Please help us make akathisia a household word by sharing this podcast and all MISSD’s free educational resources. Many lives can be saved when akathisia is accurately diagnosed and appropriately treated.

Geraldine grew up in Brooklyn and, later, Queens, New York. Spending time in Manhattan, she developed an interest in the arts and attended the Fashion Institute of Technology. She got married and moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico, where her son, Ben, was born. When Ben was 2, Geraldine returned to New York and her second child, Cindy, was born in Westchester. It was there that she raised her children and worked in a family advertising business. After retiring and moving to Sarasota, Florida, Geraldine studied and developed a passion for drawing and painting. Other interests she has pursued are yoga, tai chi, dance, philanthropy, and volunteering with children and seniors. She now has two grandchildren, ages 7 and 10.

Cindy grew up in the suburbs of New York City, and now lives in Oakland, California, working as a functional/integrative dietitian. Having lost her dad, Louis, in 2015, she’s been involved in suicide and akathisia awareness, education, and support ever since. As a former journalist, she's an avid researcher, and after her father's death, she found Chicago-based MISSD and resonated with its mission. Living in Chicago at the time, she thought it was a perfect organization to get involved in as a way to honor her dad's memory and spread awareness about potential medication side effects. She did her own extensive grief work and joined the board soon after her dad's death. She believes talking about your experiences and listening to others going through something similar helps with the healing process and from feeling isolated or alone in your pain. She adopted a rescue dog, Finley, within a year of her own loss and loves spending time with the dog on the many Bay Area trails. Cindy dabbles in a variety of hobbies in her down time, including traveling, cooking, yoga, learning the ukulele, and fiber arts.

I spoke to Geraldine and Cindy in April over Zoom when they were together in California. Here's our conversation.

AM:  Let’s start by having both of you talk about Louis, the kind of person he was prior to his suffering.  

Geraldine:  Well, I’m going to go back to when I met him.  Just a very dynamic person, a lot of wonderful energy, very outgoing, very friendly, he had a lot of friends, could be very funny, very successful at business.

AM:  And talk about his business, yeah.

Geraldine:  He was in the automobile business, a dealership that he shared with his dad.  It was basically his dad’s and he had a share in it, and he learned a lot of skills from his father.

AM:  And when did you meet and how did you meet?

Geraldine:  I met [him] because I needed a car.  (Laughs.)  My car was stolen and I was driving Pontiacs.  It was a Pontiac dealership.  And I went to a dealership near where I lived and I met Lou and he was just very friendly.  And he was going on a vacation; he asked if he could call me when he got back from the vacation, and I said, that would be lovely, you know?  I was single then; I had my son, but, you know, I was a single parent.  And I didn’t expect to hear from him but I did, and, you know, the rest was history.  (Laughs.)

Cindy:  That’s a funny story, too, because they had very different versions.  (Laughs.)  She’s like, I wasn’t – you know, like, he’s like, she was doing her makeup in the car and trying to impress me, and she’s like, no I wasn’t; she’s like, I was not thinking about, like, picking up a guy at the car dealership.  (Laughs.)  But yeah, so – no, but he was a schmoozer.  I mean —  

Geraldine:  Yeah, he’s the kind of guy — they have that expression, he knows no strangers.

AM:  And what would you say about him as your dad, Cindy?  You know, what kind of dad was he?

Cindy:  Yeah, I mean, he was really involved, you know, a little protective.  

Geraldine:  (Laughs.)

Cindy:  You know, and just yeah, always telling me how much he loved me and wanted the best for me and, you know, always slipping me money and making sure I was, you know – yeah, spoiled me a little bit and I think he, you know, took pleasure in, like, seeing my, you know, successes in life and what I was up to and kind of got a kick out of my stories and travels and stuff like that.

AM:  Yeah.  So, like many of the people I’ve spoken to in this series, he doesn’t sound like the kind of person who would have needed to go on an antianxiety medication or antidepressant, but he did.  What led up to that?

Geraldine:  Let me just preface this by saying that while we did have some things in common, we also had things that we didn’t have in common, and I started to notice – I never labeled it but I started to notice a sadness in him and kind of a depressive quality at home – not out in the world, not with his friends or business acquaintances or – but I noticed – what I could say, he seemed unhappy, like an unhappy person at home and with me.  

Cindy:  Sometimes, yeah.

Geraldine:  At times, yeah.

AM:  Well, it sounds like in some ways he kind of lived to schmooze and at home maybe he didn’t have that same opportunity.

Geraldine:  Yeah, that’s part of it. 

Cindy:  Well, I think what happened was he retired very young, when he was 52, and, you know, I think so much of his identity was tied up in his work and he didn’t necessarily have as much to do when he retired, not enough of the structure, and I think that was part of what led to, like, anxiety and depression for him.

AM:  And I would imagine, Geraldine, that when he retired and you probably saw him more often, you saw that sad side of him more often.

Geraldine:  Yes.  Oh, definitely.  When he retired, that’s when he really got lost because he couldn’t reinvent – he just wasn’t able to reinvent himself.

AM:  And did you sense a lot of this, too, Cindy?

Cindy:  You know, there was an underlying – yeah, some — maybe a low-level depression.

AM:  And so did he make the decision, then, to see a psychiatrist or how did that happen that he went on a prescription? 

Geraldine:  Well, we were in Florida and I guess he was getting deeper in sort of a depression and anxiety and he just didn’t know what to do with himself and it was getting worse and worse and sort of really ballooned into something I never saw with him.  I never saw anybody this anxious, and he went to a psychiatrist in New York who prescribed an antidepressant for him, which ramped up the anxiety to the point where, I mean, he was, like, shaking, he couldn’t function.  Oh, it was really a nightmarish thing.

AM:  But the anxiety had come into play before he went on the medication.

Geraldine:  Yes, it did. 

AM:  And then the medication just amplified it.

Geraldine:  It amplified it, yes, yes.  Yeah, I mean, he was on the medication and I thought he should get off of it and the doctor said, you won’t make it; if you get off this medication, you’re not going to make it, you’re not going to live.  And he stayed on it for – it took about – I think, like, what, six weeks for the medication to kick in where he, you know, got back to a healthier mental state.

AM:  So it did start to work for him.

Geraldine:  Yep.  It did work.

AM:  Or it seemed to work, yeah.

Geraldine:  It seemed to work.

AM:  OK.  So after about six weeks he started to normalize and the medication seemed to be doing what you hoped it would.  So then what happened?

Geraldine:  Well, he stayed on it for quite awhile, you know?

AM:  Meaning years?

Geraldine:  Years, I think.  And he was doing well.  We had been reading a lot of articles about not just – you know, you don’t have to stay on a medication once it’s working; you can start tapering off, which he eventually did.  And he seemed to be holding OK until there was an incident – like, his mother got very, very sick, ramped up the stress terribly, and I think he also was diagnosed possibly with an eye problem then, and I think there was a lot of fear.  And I saw the signs of the depression and anxiety coming on.  The whole time he was alive it was on and off for 10 years – depression, anxiety, getting better, then another incident, especially a health incident, comes along, another depression and anxiety.  Basically, it’s almost you can’t really function when you’re in it.  It’s like a different person.  He was like a different –

Cindy:  Yeah, because he was, again, like dynamic and he was the person who did, you know, like, the finances between the two of them and a lot of, like, fixing up, you know, with technology, he was very tech savvy, and, you know, fixing things around the house and stuff like that, but when he was sort of under this, you know, influence and depressed or anxious, you know, kind of mode, he –

Geraldine:  He stopped functioning.  

Cindy:  He couldn’t really do those things.  He would get kind of confused and overwhelmed.

Geraldine:  Needy, scared.  It was like, my god, who is this?  You know, he had such a strong aura, a strong, tough, very tough – that’s what my son says – oh, he’ll be fine, mom because he’s so tough.

AM:  Well, I’m trying to get a sense for – you know, he had what you’re describing as kind of, like, a natural state of anxiety.  He took medication, that made things better; he would taper off; he would go back on it; things were happening in his life that were unsettling him.  So when did he start to display symptoms of what would later be diagnosed as akathisia?

Geraldine:  I think it was – oh, he was given Seroquel.  That’s really what really brought on the akathisia.  He was so bad in depression and anxiety that he was hospitalized in a treatment center and the doctor put him on the highest doses of Seroquel.  So I went into visit.  Oh, my god, it was very frightening.  It seemed like he had – like an alcoholic would be slurring words, like not aware or just like in a complete, you know, daze.  And, you know, I got the nurse; I said, I don’t know what’s going on here.  She said, well, you know, the doctor’s starting him on this and then he’s going to regulate it.  It was late to do that.  And that’s when it really – I think that’s when it really settled into heavy duty akathisia.

Cindy:  Yeah, well, I feel like – you know, because Seroquel’s an antipsychotic and they use it off-label for depression and anxiety and I think it’s so potent, so strong, and I think it was too much for him.

Geraldine:  Yeah, Lou’s brain couldn’t handle these drugs.  You know, that’s basically it.  

Cindy:  Yeah, I mean, he was sensitive to that.  Like, he got the flu shot years before and it took him a couple years to feel right after that, so he was definitely sensitive.  

Geraldine:  Very sensitive to drugs.

AM:  Yeah.  So Geraldine, you said in a previous conversation that we had that when this started to become more full-blown, you knew it was the drugs.  

Geraldine:  Intuitively I definitely knew it was the drugs.  I mean, to see a man who was vital in a state where he was – you knew it was drug-related, you know, heavy duty drug-related, and he never should have been in that state.  I mean, it was like – yeah, it was like he either took a drug or he was drinking.  He was very — slurring the words.  He barely knew I was there.  I mean, it was –

Cindy:  Disorienting.  

Geraldine:  Yes, very disorienting.  It was very frightening to me to see him like that.

AM:  Did any of the medical professionals share that sense or did they just kind of plow forward with more drugs, as they sometimes do?

Geraldine:  They must have reduced the dosage, but I think by then it was – I think it was a little late by then.  

Cindy:  Well, yeah, they pretty much — they, you know, reassured us a lot of times, like, it will be fine, we’re just going to change his dose, we’re just going to switch it up, and he’ll be fine.  Like, it wasn’t that big of a deal kind of thing. 

AM:  So you also used the analogy, Geraldine, of a runaway train to describe the symptoms that he had developed.  Did you feel like there was no stopping it?

Geraldine:  Eventually, yeah.  I mean, I was hopeful after the first – you know, we didn’t know it was akathisia right away.  We just knew that it was – the movements were unbelievable and we thought, you know – 

Cindy:  Like he’s not reacting well to the drugs. 

Geraldine:  To the drugs.  We tried to get him off.  He didn’t want to be tapered off.  I tried other things.  I tried a lot of other things and he said nothing is working.  He didn’t give anything a chance.  I went to an alternative psychiatric center and got him – they tried to regulate –

Cindy:  Neurotransmitters.

Geraldine:  Yeah, the neurotransmitters and everything and he didn’t give it a chance.  I took him to a tapping specialist, acupuncturists; Cindy took him to –

Cindy:  Neurofeedback.

Geraldine:  – neurofeedback.  I mean, we tried – it’s like we tried everything and he just wanted more drugs.  He just begged the doctors.  “Doc” – he would say, “Doc, am I going to get better?”  You know, breathless, panicky. And they reassured him yes.

Cindy:  Well, because it’s hard to take time to wait for it to get better when you’re feeling like – it’s like a panic attack times a thousand, you know, so every minute is torture.

AM:  Well, you mentioned the movements.  Can you kind of elaborate on that?

Geraldine:  Oh, they couldn’t stop.  

Cindy:  Yeah, like pacing in place, you know, rubbing his leg, kind of rocking a little bit back and forth.  When I drove him a couple times he tried to get out of the car on the road, not to kill himself but just to –

Geraldine:  Jumping out of his skin.

Cindy:  Yeah, he was just so antsy.

Geraldine:  He didn’t know what to do with himself.  Yes, he could not just stand still.  He would be marching.

AM:  All the time?

Geraldine:  Yes, in bed the legs would be going.  He couldn’t sleep.  That was very horrible.  The man couldn’t sleep.  

Cindy:  He couldn’t lie down, he couldn’t watch TV, he couldn’t rest.

AM:  And in addition to the movements, you mentioned previously that he didn’t look right and that he could sometimes look at you in kind of a frightening and deranged way.

Geraldine:  Yes.

AM:  And one of the times that he did that was in the kitchen where you didn’t know what he was going to do.

Geraldine:  Oh, my god, it was almost a demonic look.  I didn’t know what – yeah, it was frightening, very frightening.  And then there were incidents where I was sleeping in another room so I could get some rest, he would barge in and frighten me very much, and I said, I can’t live like this, you know.  I was on high alert.  I was like on high alert.  (Laughs.)

Cindy:  Yeah, he would do that to me too sometimes, barging in just to, you know, say, what am I going to do, not to intentionally do anything scary, but he would just be like so antsy and want help.

Geraldine:  And his sister came once and she was staying over with us, and I was in one of the guest bedrooms and he came in and he was crying; he said to both of us, please help me, please, please help me; what am I going to – I can’t live like this.  He said that all the time:  I can’t live like this, I just can’t live like this.  I just don’t want to live like this, how am I going to get out of this, and please help me, please help me.  There was nothing we could do.

Cindy:  Right, it’s such a feeling of helplessness where we tried so many things and it’s like we don’t know what to do. 

AM:  Yeah.  As you said, you were suggesting different alternative treatments and whatnot but he was not open to those.

Geraldine:  Not at all.  I mean, he would go — I remember we had all the supplements out on the counter and one day he walked in, maybe a week later, maybe, and he said none of this is working; he said, get rid of all this stuff.  I said, you have to give it some time.  He said, I’m not interested in this.  He just – he felt like the doctors were going to help him with the medications.  

Cindy:  Well, because they did work, you know, sometimes for a while, so I think he did have hope that one dose and one type of medication would be the right – you know, the thing that would work.

AM:  Yeah.  And Cindy, you said that when you would visit your dad and your mom wasn’t there, she would kind of freak out if you didn’t answer a text right away, you know, while visiting him.  You both seemed to have a lot of anxiety in your mind about what he might do.  Were you concerned about what he might do to others as well as to himself?  What was your thought?

Cindy:  I wasn’t ever scared that he would do something to me.  I never thought he would because, you know, how much – I was like, it’s my dad, he’s not going to hurt me.  

Geraldine:  But you had one incident where you had to leave; you were very frightened.  He was screaming at you, pounding on the door, saying, get your mother here.  

Cindy:  Yeah, he wanted her to come over, but I don’t – but I never thought he would hurt me.  But like I said, he would come into my room at night because the lock didn’t work properly and he would – again, just to be like, you know, kind of antsy, “help me” type thing, and I – you know, it would startle you out of sleep, so that was – your nerves are on edge.  And also just watching someone in this anxiety all the time, it is anxiety-provoking in you too, but I didn’t – I personally wasn’t, yeah, scared of him.  But I was on heightened alert for him because, you know, again, toward the end we knew he was actively suicidal.  So that – 

Geraldine:  He was very desperate when he was in this depression and anxiety.  I felt he was very desperate, like, who knows what this man is going to do; he’s out of control mentally.  He’s out of control mentally is really what it was.

Cindy:  Well, and he had – yeah, so over these – you know, toward the end of the 10 years he had three different – well, the third attempt was the final attempt but he had two attempts and then the final suicide.  So we did know over the last few years he, you know, sometimes was suicidal; we could tell when he was, when he would say, like, I can’t live like this.

Two years before he died, they had separated and divorced, so I went there the last six weeks.  He had had an attempt and then I went – I was living in Chicago, I went to Florida to stay with him, and then during that whole time – when he came out of the hospital we still knew he was in a really fragile state and still suicidal.  So that’s when I was – you know, we hired caregivers to be there and —

Geraldine:  It’s like there was nothing more I can do; he wouldn’t listen to me.  

Cindy:  Her health was being affected.

Geraldine:  I was going downhill and I felt like he was taking me with him and I said, you know, it’s him or me and I’m not going to make it.  And his therapist – Cindy wasn’t there, I think, then, but she said, we have to let your daughter know what state you’re in and what you look like.  I mean, I looked like I was probably 25, 30 years older.

Cindy:  Yeah, well, I found a picture of her after my dad had died from that time and I was like, woah, she looked really sick and unwell. 

Geraldine:  I mean, it was – it took, you know, every ounce of strength to try to help him, to try to – just to do everything I could.  I mean, I dragged him everywhere and I used to massage his legs at night.  He had phone sessions with people that we thought maybe could help him. 

Cindy:  You didn’t totally abandon the situation.  I mean, she was still helping out.

Geraldine:  There were a lot of caregivers that were taking care of him, and there were times where he was doing a little better.  The last episode where he wasn’t doing well he went on Zyprexa and it helped him for a while but he was sort of, in a way, like a zombie.

Cindy:  Yeah.  He was kind of flatlined, yeah.

Geraldine:  When things wear off, it’s bad.

AM:  And I was thinking too that, Cindy, you were seeing him with much less frequency because you were only occasionally visiting.  Over time, as things were getting worse, what were your impressions about, you know, how your dad looked and how he was acting.  Did you have a moment where you thought, what happened to my dad, or was it more of an incremental thing?

Cindy:  Well, yeah, I mean, when he was in these states I did think that.  Yeah, it’s pretty shocking to see, you know, again, this strong – you know, my strong dad who I would go to for, you know, to tell me what to do in life — (laughs) — and, like, depended on him, you know, in a lot of ways.  And then he was like, yeah, he would become this sort of, yeah –

Geraldine:  Helpless.

Cindy:  – like more childlike.  But then, again, he would sort of kind of sometimes pull out of it and then I was like, OK, great, like, maybe he’s going to be OK and that’s behind us.  I mean, I was aware that once you have a suicide attempt you’re at higher risk for having more in the future.  But when you’re watching someone – you know, OK, he’s kind of pulling out of it, he’s getting back to things – like, you’re hopeful.  You know, maybe he’ll be OK.  You know, it’s like a lot of trial and error, which, you know, people with akathisia don’t have time to really wait and see how it works.

AM:  Well, and it sounds like it would have been hard to sort out what was sort of the naturally occurring anxiety and what was being compounded by these drugs.  What were your thoughts about that at the time, Cindy?  Your mom said that she had a sense that it was the drugs, but what were you thinking on that topic?  Did you have a sense that these drugs are killing my dad or –

Cindy:  I think so.  I think when we talked about it she wanted him off the drugs I was, you know, on board with that idea.  Like, I thought, yeah, if we can kind of detox him from that and kind of start from scratch that would be a good thing.  And I had read also that a lot of people who have depression and anxiety, sometimes if you just don’t intervene, it can kind of ride itself out, so I often wonder about that, like, if he had never gone on medication, would he have sort of, you know, struggled a little bit but been able to pull out of it, versus this was, you know, a permanent situation, because he was never suicidal until the akathisia.  Like, you know, he did struggle, obviously, with the depression and anxiety but he never talked about not being able to go on or suicide or anything like that until it was ramped up with the akathisia, so I do wonder, you know, maybe he would have struggled but then kind of come out of it.  So I did think, yeah, it was a good idea to try to get off the medications.

Geraldine:  I mean, the suffering that a person has with akathisia is very hard to describe to anybody.  It’s amazing that he lasted as long as he did.  We say that, I mean, how does a person live like that?  Go on and on and on, or on and off feeling that way?  

Cindy:  That’s why I do feel like at the core he didn’t want to die.  He wanted to live because some people die within days of getting on a medication.  He lived for years on and off with this and struggling and I think he tried to hold on. 

Geraldine:  And another thing is that today we’re hearing more and more research about brains being tested for medication, especially antidepressant[s], and I think I listened to a podcast; they said there’s three things that will happen:  a person will respond to medication well; another person will be like Louis, you know, who absolutely – the drugs are horrific; or the drugs will have no effect.  There are people who go on Lexapro here and there when they feel anxious and they’re fine.  You know, for Louis, it was — unfortunately it was suicide.

Cindy:  Or murder, not suicide.

Geraldine:  Murder.

The fact that the doctors kept him on the drugs and didn’t – you know, they don’t brush up and figure out there’s got to be a better way.  We can’t just keep doubling up the medication because this man is frantic and calling them at different hours, you know, all hours.

It was a 10-year struggle, on and off, on and off.  And, you know, when you start on a journey like this as a family, we knew so little about mental health – basically nothing.  I knew nothing about it.  Cindy didn’t know very much about it.  We didn’t know about depression and anxiety.  We didn’t know about akathisia.  We didn’t know about the drugs involved.  So it’s a learning curve too; you know, you want to trust the doctors.  I mean, they’re trained, you know, you’re hopeful. 

Cindy:  Yeah.

Geraldine:  You don’t expect a person to get on these drugs and get worse; that’s for sure.  I mean, that’s not what you – that’s not the outcome.  And it’s too bad he wasn’t more intuitive in saying I can’t stay on this stuff, this is making me worse.

Cindy:  Also, as a functional medicine practitioner myself, I believe strongly in functional medicine so I think finding a functional medicine doctor who specializes in mental health would be really important because they’re usually on top of, you know, the latest research and they are looking –

Geraldine:  They’re testing.

Cindy:  Yeah, more in-depth testing a lot of times and they’re looking at the root cause of what’s going on.  So, you know, for example, sometimes a thyroid issue can mimic bipolar disorder symptoms, so they might, you know, be looking at other systems in the body, how other organs are working and might have, you know, different answers.

AM:  Yeah, and this is really the first time in all the interviews that I’ve done that this has come up but it’s interesting to think about the impact of diet.  You know, when you’re on a course of treatment, when you’re taking a prescription, you know, you’re just thinking about this drug and what is it doing to you, but if your whole system isn’t functioning as it should, there could be things happening with the drug interaction that are very much related to diet.  Have you seen that?

Geraldine:  Gut-brain connection. 

Cindy:  Yeah, I mean, I work with a lot of digestive issues and gut support and yeah, there’s a huge gut-brain connection.  Most of our serotonin is in our gut, not in our brains, right, and so yeah, healing the gut, for example, is huge, and then certain foods can be, you know, high sensitivity; some people have specific food sensitivities, and then, you know, again, looking at, like, thyroid and, you know, other hormones and just there’s lots of things to consider, heavy metal toxicity.   So, you know, thinking about these other considerations, you know, with an experienced practitioner I think could be really important. 

AM:  Yeah, and you mentioned that your dad had a very sort of Western orientation towards medicine and the field of medicine.  Would you say he also had a very Western diet?

Cindy:  Yeah.  Well, he had a sweet tooth.  We found some M&M candy wrappers hidden in his office in his car and stuff.  You know, and that’s another, you know, like sugar and other inflammatory foods, you know, cause, again, inflammation in the body, which can cause inflammation in the brain.  So yeah, all these pieces are just – it’s crucial because you can’t just Band-Aid it with medication when all these other things might be happening.

AM:  Yeah.  Were either of you sort of burdened with thoughts of, you know, I didn’t do enough?

Geraldine:  Yes.

AM:  Or did you kind of conclude that realistically you couldn’t have done much more?  I mean, sometimes those – 

Geraldine:  I felt very guilty.  I felt guilty that I had to leave.  That was really hard.  I felt actually tormented by that, really. 

I mean, I probably should have kept more of a diary of this whole thing because it would have made more sense.  You know, our lives were turned upside down.  And in a million years I never would have believed this could happen to him.  We wanted him to live a healthy – we wanted him to get better and live a healthy, wonderful life.  We never wanted this to happen to him.  And, you know, underneath everything he was a beautiful soul.  He had it hidden a lot, you know.  He really did.  

Cindy:  I think we’ve both come to a place of peace around it but it took awhile because – and having both been in support groups, I think, most people who have a suicide loss in their circle have feelings of guilt in some way that they could have done – 

Geraldine:  Oh, yes.

Cindy:  If only I had said this that night or –

Geraldine:  Yes.

Cindy:  But I had to be like, I did not do this to him, like ultimately, you know.  And my aunt and uncle both said to me, like, my dad’s siblings have both said to me that that’s how they knew how bad he was, how bad a shape he was because if he was willing to leave this earth and leave me behind kind of, right, like, they knew that that’s how bad he was because they were like he never would have done that, had he not been sort of like – like, he was taken over.  It wasn’t him. You know, I was like, this is not my dad, like, he was somewhere else, you know?

So, you know, it took awhile to kind of get to that place, and there are still some lingering feelings of yeah, if I did something differently would it have turned out differently?

Geraldine:  I’m going to end this on a happy note.  Cindy and I often talk about the phenomenal memories and the funny incidents that we’ve had as a family, with him, and I’ve had her sometimes so hysterical laughing that — I said, this is what he would do when he would sleep at night with his pillow and she’d be doubled over [with] laughter, and we remember the incidents.  I mean, there were so many funny stories and funny things that he said and did.  You know, so we reminisce a lot and we have, really, some funny, great, great memories of this man and our family and a lot of good stuff, so we like to do that a lot.  (Laughs.) I really try to remember the happy and fun times, you know, that we had as a family.

Cindy:  Yeah, like not the akathisia version but the real version.

Geraldine:  Yeah.  And I talk to him a lot, actually, I have to tell you.  I say let’s say prayers, you know, make sure you’re watching over your daughter, or I say prayers.  I just bought a car and, you know, he loved cars and I drive out of the dealership and I said, Lou, are you proud of me?  Look, I did this on my own, you know, like, you taught me good, you know, you taught me well.  So I still talk, you know, talk about him – to him, really, to him a lot.  He was really a cute guy.  He really was.

AM:  Do you think he’s been watching over this conversation?

Cindy:  (Laughs.)

Geraldine:  Probably.  

Cindy:  Maybe. 

[Andy Miles] Looking back on her dad's passing, seven years later, Cindy says there’s still always a void but it’s not quite as painful.

[Cindy]You know, it’s not as raw. The pain isn’t as raw. So it’s like years later, when time passes, I think your relationship to the loss changes.

Geraldine reflects that Louis's "family and I should have been together on this, making decisions as well as the doctors. Someone recently said to me that he should have been placed somewhere and not living in our home in this horrific condition, that he needed professional care. In retrospect,” she says. “This information can help people going through this."

You've been listening to the “Akathisia Stories” podcast. We'll have another episode next month. If you'd like to share your own story for this podcast, please email studio.c.chicago@gmail.com, and please share this podcast, rate it, and subscribe.

I'm Andy Miles, and I'd like to thank Geraldine and Cindy for their time and candor, and I'd like to thank you for listening.

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