EPISODE 21: READI OR NOT, THE FIRE GRANT
MARY MORTEN (MM): Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of “Gathering Ground,” a podcast where with each new episode a special guest, and sometimes many guests, and I explore what it looks like to thrive in the nonprofit landscape. I'm Mary Morten, president of Morten Group, LLC. We’re a national consulting firm that operates in Chicago and works with clients from coast to coast and everywhere in between. Our work is carried out through organizational development, research, executive placements, racial equity, access, diversity, and inclusion, or READI. You can find out more about Morten Group at mortengroup.com.
As some of you may know, Morten Group is proud to be celebrating our 20th anniversary in 2021. And one of the ways we are celebrating that anniversary is with the announcement of the Forging Innovation in Racial Equity Grant, or FIRE Grant for short. The FIRE Grant is focused on advancing racial equity, access, diversity, and inclusion at one nonprofit through internal organizational assessment, racial equity training, and action plan development. Eligible organizations are U.S.-based, have 501(c)(3) status, and have budgets between $400,000 and $1.1 million. But most importantly, they are prepared to do what is necessary to successfully embark on this journey with us.
If you’re planning on applying for the grant, congratulations. You’re in the right place, as this episode is required listening for applicant organizations.
If this is your first time hearing about the FIRE Grant, visit mortengroup.com; that’s m-o-r-t-e-n group dot com — for more information.
Since we’re gearing up for the FIRE Grant this episode, we want to take a deeper dive into Morten Group’s READI work; that’s racial equity, access, diversity, and inclusion. To have that conversation with me, I am very excited to welcome some of our current client partners from Erie Family Health Centers and some of our own Morten Group team members. So first, I’m going to throw it to Dr. Lee Francis.
And Lee, would you please introduce yourself to our “Gathering Ground” audience?
LEE FRANCIS (LF): Mary, thank you for having us on. I’m Lee Francis, a physician by training. I’m currently serving as the president and CEO of Erie Family Health Centers. And we’re a large, community-based health center in the greater Chicago Metro area. We’ve been around for 62 years and we serve a diverse community of 81,000 patients over the entire Chicago Metro area.
MM: Wonderful. And what are your pronouns, Lee, just so we all know.
LF: My pronouns are he, him, and his.
MM: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
And we’re going to go to Kelly next. Kelly, will you introduce yourself?
KELLIE MEDIOUS (KM): Absolutely. Hello, everybody. I’m Kellie Medious. I am the senior director of patient access operations for Erie Family Health Centers and also Erie’s first DEI officer. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. So happy to be here.
MM: Thank you so much.
Zach? Take it away.
ZACHARY SPREITZER (ZS): Thank you, Mary. My name is Zach Spreitzer. I go by the pronouns he, him, his. And I am Erie’s manager of financial analysis and Kellie’s co-chair on the DEI committee.
MM: Wonderful.
And the fabulous MGT members. Lisa, will you get us started?
LISA GILMORE (LG): Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Mary.
Hi, everyone. I’m Lisa Gilmore, and my pronouns are she, her, and they, them. And I am senior trainer and a consulting associate with Morten Group and have the privilege of helping to facilitate Erie’s DEI committee work.
MM: Wonderful.
Avi, bring it on home.
AVI BOWIE (AB): All right. Thanks, Mary. My name’s Avi Bowie. Pronouns he, him, his, or they, them, theirs. And I’m the training and curriculum director with Morten Group. I also have the distinct privilege of working alongside Lisa to support Kellie, Zach, and the rest of their team in the fantastic DEI committee work that they’re engaged in.
MM: Wonderful. Thank you all so much for being here.
And let’s give a little context for the work. We heard a little bit about the work that Erie does, and so let’s talk about why Erie decided to really, you know, take the journey working on diversity, equity, and inclusion.
And Lee, would you get us started? How did you decide internally that this was something you wanted to do? We’ve actually been working with Erie for certainly over two years; I think we’re moving into our third year. Yeah.
LF: It’s been a great ride. And I think, you know, starting with DEI work is there’s no marked line in the sand, “Here’s the starting line; here’s the finish line.” I feel like at our health centers — you know, we have over 700 employees — it was really organic. The combination of people, staff really saying: “We’re interested in finding more about each other. We want to know more about each other. We want to really dive into some of the great issues that are facing our day. And as we move into more diverse and eclectic communities in the Chicago area for health care services, our staff began to reflect more diverse communities. And I think that really pointed out a need to do something more formal within the organization.
MM: So, just to give all of our listeners context: Morten Group conducted trainings for all of the staff at Erie. We also — so we did an assessment first, which is how we start all of our work. And again, this is going to be helpful for those of you who are listening who will be applying for the FIRE Grant. We start all of our work with an assessment, and then we move into what we would describe as a knowledge-building opportunity or opportunities, as the case may be, with some sort of training. And then we work on really writing the DEI action plan and helping you set up your committee.
So when Erie started, we’ve gone through all those phases, and now, Erie is at a point, which is significant, that later this week they will be starting a training of the trainer. And I’m going to just ask Avi to talk a little bit about that before we come back to Erie and hear more about their journey.
AB: Thanks, Mary. I’m happy to speak to that.
Yeah, we are really excited to be able to take this next step with Erie. Something that we recognize is that part of our success is creating success for our client partners, and so it doesn’t make sense for us to position ourselves in a way that we have to continually be providing trainings, for a couple of different reasons: one is because we recognize that, as is the case here, Kellie, Zach, and Lee are experts in the culture of Erie and the needs of Erie in this moment. And so supporting them to be able to identify what are the training needs that our communities are sitting with right now and how can we fulfill those opportunities ourselves independently is really exciting for us to think about as a next step.
MM: Wonderful.
Kellie, let’s talk a little bit about your role as the DEI officer and why was that of interest to you? Tell us — you know, share one or two things that you’ve learned while being in that role.
KM: Well, yeah. So DEI, this role was definitely of interest to me when it was first presented to me. I felt that I wanted to do my part in helping move Erie forward. The first thing I learned, though, is as DEI officer, it is not my responsibility to fix everything but be that partner and that support to Erie as we move through this together.
The main thing that I’ve learned is that this is a journey. There is no beginning. There is essentially no end. It’s what you can do in the time that you have, and so every step that we’ve made so far has been very rewarding, whether big or small. I think I am just so proud of Erie and how well we have come together as an organization, almost a family all committed to moving DEI forward.
This role is something that I don’t take lightly. It is a highly visible role. And sometimes I get a lot of questions that may even have me stuck. So I will call Lisa, Avi all the time when those situations occur. However, what’s rewarding about it is that everybody is thinking about it and everybody wants to do their part in it.
MM: Excellent. And that’s a really good point to make that everyone has a role to play, so even if you are fortunate enough to be in an organization like Erie where there’s someone designated as a DEI officer, everything does not rest on that person’s shoulders. Right? It is really important that everyone understand their particular piece of the work.
And Zach, what interests you about the work so that you would come forward and serve as the DEI committee co-chair?
ZS: Well, actually, I was really excited to get the offer to become the co-chair when I applied to the committee. And I think part of that was that I had a history in working with the parents’ organizations at my children’s school for the three years leading up to that, and then the outreach I had done and the learning that I had done in that area, and the ability to bring that to the committee as a whole and supporting our committee members.
MM: Great. So back to you for a moment, Lee.
We know that there are lots of staff leaders of organizations that are really thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion, racial equity. And what would you say you know now that you didn’t know before that might have been helpful? Is there anything that comes to mind?
LF: One thing that I’ll just — I think it’s a very personal thing, but I’ll just out it right now on the podcast, on “Gathering Ground,” and that is — and I think Mary and your team helped me with this, and that is, you know, people can’t see from the podcast, but I’m a white man. And what I learned is that it’s really important for me in my role as the organization’s leader, regardless of my race, ethnicity or background, but even as a white man, it was really important for the organization to see that that was important to me, that the DEI efforts of the organization at its core, down to the genetics of the organization, was really important to me. And it doesn’t make it even less important or more important, but it was one thing that I learned. And I don’t care if that’s external or internal, but I think — you know, you asked me what I learned and so that’s really the first thing I came to, and it makes me even more so engaged to work with you and your team and our team internally, because it really gives me purpose.
MM: Great. That’s wonderful.
Lisa, when you think about your role as senior trainer and working with Erie in particular, what are some of the, I would say, lessons learned, even at this point in the work?
LG: Yeah. Something I think has really stood out to me as a trainer is how this work just keeps moving in ways that I don’t anticipate, and it’s not for lack of trying to anticipate what might come next. But it’s so organic, and the things that come forward and sometimes become really important to some members of a DEI committee or to different people, what they share in their assessment, you know, through a survey or an interview, sometimes I’m really grateful for how vulnerable some people will chose to be in their sharing because of what they’re hoping for from this type of work. And I haven’t always had that kind of experience doing other kinds of training facilitation or group facilitation that I’ve done in the past. So that’s been a big thing to learn and something I’ve been surprised by for sure.
Another thing is just sometimes having the opportunity to really see lightbulbs going on and I’ve been surprised how that has included myself at times and that there’s this parallel process of needing to be open to the material and open to self. That happens both if you’re participating in the training and if you’re facilitating. And I’ve found that to be really cool and really rewarding.
MM: Those are really great examples, and I think it’s important to note: Sometimes when you start working with a consulting group around equity work, there’s this tendency to put the consults on some sort of a pedestal. And what we know, certainly our internal culture at Morten Group, is that we are always learning. We are always looking for, you know, conversations around particular concepts, terminology, and understanding that in some cases it’s really going to be driven by the culture of the organization of the client-partner. And so we use that term intentionally because we are partnering with you; we are meeting you where you are and hopefully moving the conversation forward. We often talk about calling people in, not calling people out. Our approach is yes, to be firm, but also to not shame anyone. Right? There’s no value in people feeling shamed and there’s no — and we can’t move the conversation if people feel shamed in some way. People just kind of go off into their own corners. And so that is very much a central tenet, if you will, of our work, and this ongoing learning piece.
Kellie and Zach, you’re the co-chairs of the DEI staff committee at Erie. What has that process been like for you? And just describe maybe a lesson learned. And you know, when we say lessons learned, that’s a nice way to say some challenges you’ve had. (Laughs.) Just, you know, you don’t have to mention any names, but I think it’s helpful for listeners to hear and to know that, you know, the road to equity is long and a little jagged. (Laughs.) You know, there is no — and so how do we keep going? Right? How do we not lose momentum, I think is important to make sure that everyone understands as well.
So anything you’d like to share?
KM: Yeah, Mary, I think you and Lisa kind of hit it right on the — the nail on the head. So, one, it’s a journey, and everyone’s idea is not going to be well received or agreed with. That’s one lesson that I learned. But does that mean that it doesn’t have value? Absolutely not. So we have to learn to make space for everybody’s idea and find critical ways to, as you said, make sure that they don’t feel slighted, that they [don’t] feel hurt, that their idea is valued, but also be very intentional and deliberate as to “maybe that’s a great idea, but not now.” Or “maybe that’s a great idea, but in the fall,” just to let them know that we are hearing you, but it’s not necessarily something that we can actually do right now. Or helping people understand is this really Erie’s responsibility or is it larger? Could Erie actually be a part of the solution and not own the solution? So those are some other lessons learned that has really been helpful for both Zach and I. And also just being comfortable being uncomfortable. This is a new group of people; this is not our typical meeting space, for example, where we know what we’re going to talk about and at the end of the meeting you’re going to have some goals or some strategies to move forward. We do have an agenda. We do have a plan, but we also open that space to let things happen organically and shift the way they need to, which is kind of new to a lot of people, especially when they’re around the DEI work.
MM: Right. And that’s a great piece to offer up about things happen organically, because that is very different, right. I would also say it’s different working in a health care center — right? — where you have some things you need to get done — right? — on a (very ?) regular basis at particular times. And I remember when we were doing the trainings that we really wanted to make sure that we could accommodate your medical staff who are going to be seeing patients, you know, sometimes, as well as other, you know, staff that do administration and our different roles throughout the clinic. And so one of the things that we pride ourselves on is being flexible, and so, you know, trainings need to start at 9:00 or 8:30 or 1:00, then that’s what we do as well.
Zach, what are some lessons learned from the committee work that you’ve been a part of?
ZS: Well, I’ve found it incredibly helpful having a co-chair. Being able to lean on each other, knowing that neither one of us will ever have the perfect answer, but being able to bounce ideas and thoughts off of one another and then bringing them to the wider committee. I think the other crucial part is that — (inaudible) — development of our sub-groups, allowing them to focus very (particularly ?) on a specific area, and then kind of build those ideas in and amongst themselves, and then, again, also bringing it back to the wider committee for refinement and a little extra guidance and seeing how we can support each other, whether one committee can support another in overlapping areas or if there are, say, opportunities with our employee resource groups to get involved. Or some other outreach that we’ve done recently is bringing non-committee members into the subcommittees to give them opportunities as well to participate in, you know, ways that may not require as much time as they would be otherwise willing to commit.
MM: OK, great.
Lee?
LS: Honestly, Mary, Kellie and Zach are being very modest. I mean, a lot of our work had already started pre-pandemic, pre-George Floyd, pre-our fellow citizens out on the streets. And it just — lessons learned here — it just made the committee discussions and our staff — and we did some staff town halls, you know, you’ll remember. Just the emotions and people needing to have that safe space and the co-chairs learning how to navigate that during a time really like no other in recent history, although we do know history goes back, you know, centuries in our country, but being able to navigate that as co-chairs and learning from that, I think, you know, let’s give credit where credit is due there. So many learnings there, and I think we’re all still learning as we get into 2021 and beyond.
MM: Absolutely. Thank you for mentioning that. Yes, that was certainly a key time during the summer with our work as well, and for a group like Erie, that had already started the work, it just put you in a particular place that you could then build on. Right? You could leverage what you’ve already done and build on it in a very different way than if you started it after, you know, George Floyd was murdered. And so — yeah, because we did those trainings in person, so it was certainly pre-COVID, absolutely. We did the trainings in, what was it, 2018 and 2019 perhaps?
Avi, can you talk a little bit about the DEI committee and sort of how we helped set up the DEI committee?
AB: Absolutely. So, you know, I would highlight that our process really is consistent throughout, and so the way we set up the committee is the same way that we are beginning assessment and our assessment process the same way that we are developing our trainings, which is it’s a process of collaboration. So no two committees that we support are the same, because we recognize that how a committee is structured, what the priorities are is going to shift from institution to institution and client partner to client partner. So we’re really interested in understanding what are the unique dynamics that you are navigating in this moment? Right? What are the opportunities that were highlighted in the assessment that were named by participants in training who say this is what we really need to be looking at right now. This is what we need to be moving forward. And so it begins with that process of discussion of collaboration and identifying, really, what are the best paths forward here?
And the other element of that that I would want to highlight too, and this is true with all of our work, is that I would say the subtext is centering collaboration and relationship. Right? So we think about the fact that this work really has to get beyond theory. We can never hit the ground running, as it were. We really have to begin by establishing trust, establishing rapport. To the points that were just made: recognizing that we’re living in a moment in time that is really asking us to do that — right? — to take a collective deep breath and to think about how do we make sure that we’re doing this work in the right way — right? — that we’re honoring one another. In Erie’s case, you know, there’s such a deep commitment to making sure that patients’ needs are centered, that patients’ voice is included.
And so I guess what I would highlight with regard to that point is we take a lot of time and we feel like it’s important to allow some space again for that process to develop organically in bringing a committee together and starting with understanding who are we as a committee? Right? What are our values? We work with the committee members to create a vision statement or a values statement that is going to then inform the work moving forward. It’s really at the end that we are launching into this process of creating an action plan, and that is often a place where people want to begin. But time and time again, we have to say there is other work that we need to — there, you know, is ground that we need to lay before we can start the action-planning process.
MM: Great. Thank you so much.
When you’re thinking — and this is for you, Lee — when you’re thinking about how Erie was going to start this work, how did the conversations go with the executive team? And it’s important to note that we are intentionally asking smaller organizations to apply for this FIRE Grant. The budget is 400K to $1.1 million, because we know that it’s often organizations of that size that actually won’t have access to resources that we can provide.
Of course, Erie has a much larger budget than that, and does, in fact, have an executive leadership team. So I’m just curious, how did you start the conversations there? Because you also started them with your board as well. But let’s talk about the executive leadership team.
LS: Well, we do it call the executive leadership team. These are my colleagues, our chief clinical officer, chief financial officer, chief operating officer, you know, and others on the team. Very, very important philosophically and mission-driven reasons for doing this for all of us. I feel like we all linked arms and we all decided that whether it’s budgeting time or budgeting treasure to really make this part of our fabric that that’s what we really needed to do. And when I say time and treasure, since we are a clinical organization, when we’re pulling doctors and nurses and medical assistants out of sometimes seeing patients and doing trainings and having discussions and town halls, we have to — it’s a lot of flexibility, and so it requires — it’s not just Lee saying OK, we’re going to do this. It really requires a collaboration across a team to make it happen operationally, logistically, and financially. And that’s not to scare anyone away from it; it actually makes it easier if everyone gets together, because then it really — it’s going to work and it’s going to be sustainable.
MM: And I can’t restate enough that your leadership, your presence — I remember when we came to the first DEI staff committee meeting and you were there, and that makes a huge difference. We had the incredible opportunity to provide trainings for the governor’s office in August, and while all the deputy governors came, which we knew that was going to happen, one day the governor came and introduced the training and stayed all day. That’s really an important message for your team to see that it is important, that you’re going to be committed to it, it’s not something that you’re just giving lip service to.
And so for those of you who are thinking about applying for the FIRE Grant, it’s important that you do have buy-in across the entire organization, because that actually will greatly support the work and ensure some success in the work.
When we talk about the action plans, which are very similar to strategic plans, there’s often a tendency to want to front-load the first year of the plan. We’re going to get it all done right now, first year, as opposed to understanding — and I think you were speaking to this a little bit, Kellie, like, “We might not be able to do that now, but we may be able to do it, you know, down the road,” and how you have to build. Right? You’re putting some foundational pieces in place and then you’re going to look maybe not in year one, but we’ll get to it in year two, and it may be something that comes in year three, because it may take that much time. And when you’re done with your plan, you just — you know, you do another plan. Right? And again, very similar to a strategic plan. We actually want those documents to be linked and understood that there’s a strong connection.
Lisa, what have you noticed — because you’ve had a chance to work with numerous groups around the committee piece. What have you noticed — again, something that you know now that maybe you didn’t know before? You talked about the organic nature of the work, and that’s very important. And I’ll be the first to admit, as someone who — sometimes it’s difficult for me to let things be organic. (Laughs.) Everyone’s laughing at that.
LG: What? What?
MM: I know, it’s shocking. However, I have learned — (laughs) — that it is best sometimes to let things move at their own pace. What are some of the things that you’ve learned that you think it’s important for people who are applying for the FIRE Grant to know?
LG: You know, Mary, when I heard you start going down the path towards this question, what came into my mind was how so much of our work, particularly with the committees following trainings, so much of it is figuring out how do we do this work in a way that actually is a part of showing what we want equity to be in this world.
MM: Yes.
LG: And so trying to, you know, help folks remember this is not a fire right now; this has been hundreds of years of what is happening with oppression and inequity, not that we want to intentionally slow it and keep people in oppression or in inequitable circumstances, but taking our time, making sure that the work is really centered and includes people who are most impacted, doing all of the things we can, you know: Are you going to have a simple democracy, 50 percent plus one wins the day, or are you going to actually say, “Oh, at least 80 percent of us need to have consensus on this idea before we’ll move it forward”? Right? What are the ways that we can try to do this work that directly confront a lot of the cultural conditions and ways that we’ve all been trained to move things really quickly and/or, you know, have to have it be perfect before we do anything or not be able to take risks for fear of feeling ashamed about not already knowing what you’re doing before you even start doing it.
So I think that that is such a huge part of the process, and that is a lot of what I would call the soft-skill coaching parts of what we do, because it’s hardly ever written on an agenda for a meeting, but it’s stuff that happens throughout a meeting. And Avi and I and all of our other co-facilitators will take those moments to say, “Hey, I just want to — I don’t want to say something about something I’m noticing that’s happening right now, or has been happening with this process and let’s talk about it.” And something that brings me some of the greatest amount of joy is when someone on the committee brings it forward and says it to the rest of the committee, that they’re noticing something like that. And I keep thinking, “Oh, that is going to be how it is,” that this becomes the culture of the organization when people notice it and feel like they can say it to each other. And then other people can hear it and receive it. I think it’s awesome.
[Show break]
MM: Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me on “Gathering Ground.” We want to hear from you. If you have any questions about your work in nonprofits or any of the topics that we’ve covered here on “Gathering Ground,” send them on in. Send them to mary@gatheringgroundpodcast.com. That’s mary@gatheringgroundpodcast — all one word — dot com. We look forward to hearing from you.
[Interview resumes]
MM: So, Lisa, picking up on your last idea: Avi, what would you add to that? I love this idea of the lightbulb going on. I mean, I don’t know how much better it can get when someone actually is saying what, you know, you’ve been talking about and is like, OK, I’ve internalized that in some way. That’s an incredible thing to see. What would you add to that, Avi?
AB: I think Lisa really characterized it beautifully. I would — yeah, I would say — and this is connected to so much of what has been said already in this conversation — but I think it’s really this question often of looking at a shift in our focus from the “what” — right? — so thinking about — which is important, right? — we need to understand the policies; we need to understand the practices that really have to change — right? — in order to create and sustain equity. But as important is the “how.”
I was reminded, as Lisa was speaking, of Audre Lorde’s saying, the master’s tools will not dismantle the master’s house — right? — so there’s this understanding that we actually have to do things radically differently and we have to — and so much of our work really begins with creating space and opportunity to examine what is it that I bring to this space, to this conversation with regard to the identities that I hold, with regard to the experiences that I’ve had, with regard to the way that people see me — right? — when we’re in a room together or on a Zoom call together. And how can I grow my awareness of that, both in terms of the decisions that I’m making — right? — so if I’m somebody who has a lot of decision-making power growing and understanding of that and — (inaudible) — on how can I share responsibility? How can I meaningfully engage other voices that actually have a lot more to say about this particular issue?
So that’s what I would add to what Lisa has shared is thinking about this element of sharing power and of extending an invitation so that more and more voices are brought to the table, which, as Lisa named, that takes time — right? Building consensus takes time and so much of what we talk about within the committee work that we’re supporting is balancing, on the one hand, this sense of urgency. Right? As we have seen highlighted this past year, this work is literally a matter of life or death — right? — for many, many, many people. This is not theory. This is directly impacting lives and wellbeing. So how do we recognize that and respond to that and also respond in ways that are actually going to effect real change and sustainable change that actually serves the people that we want to be serving?
MM: Great. I love that.
I want to go back to you one more time, Lee, before we talk a little bit specifically about the FIRE Grant, just to make sure that we let our listeners know that this grant is really to include work with the board. And I’ve had the chance now to work with your board a couple times, and I love them dearly — just the energy, the connection. You talk about connecting with people. And I want to just say — you talk about giving credit where credit is due — when we were planning a board session, one of the things that Lee talked about was that it was important that everyone on the board, since, you know, people needed to meet virtually — had access to the equipment, and in some cases, that would mean having to come into the office. And that meant that people in some cases stayed later, maybe some of your tech folks did, to make sure that people could get on machines, that they were — they felt reasonably comfortable with operating them, you know, and being able to participate in a Zoom meeting. And that is really what equity is. Equity is making sure that everyone has the resources and the access to be successful. And it’s a great example. I’ve used it, you know, many times, Lee. I’ll just tell you now. And what has it been like for your board? They had an introductory session with us and I know we’re probably going to do some more work in the future. However, what was the reaction on the board when you had a chance to check in with them?
LF: Well, thanks for recognizing the equity issue with access to broadband and devices and things like that. And it came up because our board of directors, my boss, is 22 amazing, lovely people — it’s a majority of patients are users of our services that represent the communities that we serve. And so that makes for a really type of a family type of gathering and a meeting to do business every month when we have board meetings. And yet, just because we meet every month as a board, and the board interacts on some of the most important decisions that our organizations make, it doesn’t mean that they necessarily discuss in open board session some of the issues that are related to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And just because it’s visually a diverse board does not necessarily mean that they are engaging in the discussions and understanding each other at the levels needed to appropriately, in a leading sort of way, govern the organization, because they are the governance of the organization — not me, not Kellie, not Zach, not our leadership team. They are the leaders of the organization. So it’s very important that they are able to engage through the lens of DEI, and it’s not — I don’t think it’s necessarily something that comes naturally to boards.
MM: Absolutely.
LF: But boy, did they — they did soak it up in a very positive way, which gave me — I think gave us all great joy, at the end of the day.
MM: Wonderful. No, it just — I mean, they — lovely group and it was just one of those experiences where I could have done it over. And that’s, you know, not something I say, you know, in the evening after hours. (Laughter.) You know, let’s do this again! Let’s meet again! But I absolutely wanted to make sure that I could work with your board again because they’re absolutely delightful.
So I want to ask one more question to Zach and Kellie about their work. How has it — if it has — has it changed your sort of position or how you’re seen in the organization now that you’re holding these roles as the DEI committee chairs? Any difference in how people approach you or, you know, things that they will assume that you will be able to address? Has that changed at all, any of those dynamics?
KM: Yes. It has. (Laughter.) It definitely has, but in a positive way. Even before I became the DEI officer, my realm of responsibility is what you would consider the call center referrals area, medical records, which is a huge team. It’s about 80-plus at this point. And so we service the entire organization. So I was often known as the person to kind of help bridge the gap, be it provider, operations, administration. So I already had kind of that happening for me, and then when I took the DEI role, that, on top of all of my other responsibilities, it was interesting just trying to figure out what will this email really entail? Do you want me to fix something in medical records, or are we going to really have an authentic conversation? What I’ve noticed mostly is that people are coming expressing their commitment to DEI, which is really helpful. People are approaching me just thanking me for the work that we are doing and understanding that it’s not something that will happen overnight. So I can appreciate that. And then also given me a sense of (release ?) that they trust me to partner in this effort to move DEI forward and that I have their support. So I think that is the biggest difference since I’ve taken this role.
MM: OK.
And Zach? What about your area of work?
ZS: So I have gotten a little more outreach than I did prior to taking this role, but I would say that I’ve been very fortunate in that I’m able to support Kellie and hopefully field some of the commentary that she gets. And I think, more to the point, being in the finance and behind-the-scenes sort of role in my day-to-day position, you know, I get more of the budget questions and, you know, how else can I be involved sort of outreach from administrative and, you know, back office staff and seeing what roles that they might be able to fill, given, you know, their either interests or their time available, and it’s been really a pleasure trying to help guide them into areas that fit them well and excite them, I think.
MM: Wonderful.
So I have a couple questions I want to ask Avi and Lisa, and then we’re going to take questions from our listeners.
So, Lisa, what excites you about the FIRE Grant? And what kind of impact do you think it can make?
LG: I am excited to work with a smaller organization on this particular project. I think there is something about working with a team that might not otherwise have access to this kind of training I would say at this level or at this depth and breadth. Right? There’s a lot of folks doing DEI training that come in and give you the same training that they gave to the last five organizations that they gave the training to. And sometimes, I think with some of the smaller groups, I think there could be some really interesting, challenging dynamics of a smaller group where folks are more closely working with each other every day, as opposed to a larger group where a lot of people might not know each other or even work at the same site together ever. And so that interests me. But also, I think there could be something really cool about seeing this process with this smaller group over time, and honestly, it’s a way to practice equity to have it be something that is available to an organization that doesn’t have the kind of resources. And so that excites me in terms of it being a part of the process, part of the intentionality of offering the grant.
MM: So, Avi, talk a little bit about the process when you’re developing curriculum for a new client, which for us at Morten Group is, to Lisa’s point, we’re not just moving training from group to group; we’re using the assessment. And when you start with the assessment, what’s your process for the curriculum development?
AB: Sure. So, you know, I think as I’ve shared, we really enter this work with an understanding that no two organizations are the same — right? — even if they work within the same or similar industries. And so it is imperative for us to be understanding, again, where, for example, is Erie in this moment of time? Right? So when we started that assessment process, we were asking Erie, who are the experts in that question, what is it that you all are navigating? Right? What are the needs? What are the opportunities? What are the strengths that you are already — that you already have in place? And so that’s an important element of our process too is we are not wanting to be deficit-focused. We’re really wanting to understand what is working that we can support and that we can help to grow.
So looking at all the rich assessment data that we receive through folks completing surveys, through one-on-one interviews, we’re able, then, to begin to create our curriculum that is responsive to what folks are identifying is a need. So what we do in the process of analyzing that data is seeing what are the themes that are emerging here? Right? What is it that we’re seeing folks sharing time and time again? So if one of the opportunities that is being identified is, you know, we really need to have a deeper understanding of how microaggressions are showing up in our interpersonal communication with one another as staff or in our relationships with patients, then we will take care to focus on that and to ensure that we are also doing what we can to provide examples that are relevant to the work that’s being done. Right? So in our work with Erie, we wanted to make sure that we were really looking at what are health inequities that folks across the board within Erie are navigating in real time in the work that they’re doing? And so that’s where we begin. We also are making sure that we’re approaching our training through multiple lenses or multiple dimensions. As I mentioned before, we recognize that we bring ourselves into the work that we do, wherever we are, whatever it is that we do. We bring our identities, our experiences, and so starting there — right? — with really understanding how have I been shaped as an individual who works within this institution and how does that impact the decisions that I make and the ways that I engage with other people and am engaged? We’re then wanting to extend some curiosity to how does that impact our interpersonal relationships, and then, on an institutional level, how does that impact the decisions that are being made? And so in creating our trainings, we’re really wanting to make sure that we’re spending time looking at those different dimensions of equity and inequity and how folks are engaging in their work.
Another element that is really important to us in this process is creating time within those trainings to not only talk about what are the terms, what are the concepts that are important for folks to understand, but also, what are the tools — right? — so beginning to create some space to say these are some tools that we want to recommend you are beginning to utilize and explore in changing — or changing these conditions or growing equity.
And then finally, within the training, we are also ensuring that we’re creating some space for folks to identify what would you like to see happen next, so that it’s made really, really clear, as we often say, that the work is not the workshop. Right? So the training is really the beginning of a much larger and what we hope will be more sustained body of work that is also informed, again, by the people who are most directly impacted.
MM: I love that. Thank you so much.
That is a perfect segue to our listener questions.
So this is from Varun who is in Chicago. They work at a nonprofit that has a pretty diverse staff, both in terms of demographics and experience and thought. And they say, “We’ve been doing some work around DEI for the last couple years, lunch-and-learns, panel discussions that we watch as a staff, but it still feels like there’s some structure and planning missing for us. Do you have any recommendations for a group like ours? How might I bring this up to my leadership without appearing ungrateful for the work that has already been done?
And so, would anyone like to offer Varun some ideas about how to approach leadership? It sounds like they want to go deeper. Right?
Lisa, go ahead.
LG: Yeah, that’s a great question, Varun. Thanks for that.
I think what you’re bringing forward is something that feels very familiar to me around if we — to what Avi was saying earlier about how the trainings are developed and the process that we use and what we’re hoping folks get out of it. If we just do terminology and knowledge building and don’t build in the self-reflection and the experiential opportunities, what is missing for most people is the “how.” Right? So people say, “Oh, yeah, that sounds cool; I get that; that makes sense to me,” which can be something that makes sense both on an intellectual level and then also maybe an emotional or an experiential-understanding level. But what is still missing is the “how.” And so what I would recommend, Varun, is an approach — first of all, I would say if you’re having thoughts about being perceived as being ungrateful in relation to having received training already, that says something maybe about a potential in terms of a power dynamic at your organization. And so I would build off of that by saying, you know, what you’ve provided so far has really got me thinking, really got me going, and I’d like to be a part of taking this further for our organization and to getting to know how to do some of the stuff at our organization, because this is about the interactions that we have between each other for all people, and it’s also about, then, how we show up and how we impact the culture at this organization. So there needs to be a move into the, like, how are we going to do it, not just the knowledge-building that can happen with the opportunities that you’ve described as having already at your organization.
MM: Great.
Anyone want to add to that? Anything else that — yes, Lee?
LF: Well, Lisa, what you said really resonated with me and also what the questioner said. I mean, don’t lessen what’s already been done at your organization. That is very valuable and the people that are attending the lunch-and-learns or whatever activities, they are taking something from that. And I think foundationally, presenting to the leadership of your organization, if that’s what you are going to do, that you can say we’ve built a foundation based on our work already and we’re ready to take some incremental next steps. And that goes to what Kellie and others were saying earlier is that it is a journey. And having started the journey, it is really, really so important, so give yourself credit for that, because I think leaders of organizations want to take credit for stuff they’ve accomplished, so declare victory and move on, basically, is what I’m saying.
MM: OK. All right.
I’m going to move to our next question. This is from Amber in Arlington Heights. “How do you know that an organization is emotionally prepared to begin this work? My organization is still having what they are calling” — and this is in quotes — “‘diversity trainings,’ which I know is so outdated and sounds like it has zero nuance around what diversity even means, not to mention how to dismantle racist structures. I’m afraid that introducing too much too soon into what I’ve come to call a fragile social ecosystem like my predominantly white institution will really wreak havoc and cause more harm than good. What if an organization is in need of the growth but may not be able to sustain the emotional work?”
And I’ll just add in, as you’re thinking about your response, that we often talk about — you know, we often say to client partners, it’s going to be uncomfortable, and we can pretty much figure out in some cases when it’s going to start to be uncomfortable and that’s usually after the training and as we move into the action planning — sometimes before, but often that’s where we may see it. And that discomfort is necessary. You know, we — think of any social movement — right? — that we’ve ever seen; it was not — it did not happen by people sitting down and having tea and crumpets, you know. So there’s going to be some discomfort, and that is part of the work. And so what do you do if people can’t be in the moment and really take that on and understand that it’s part of the work? It is absolutely part of the work.
Kellie, I saw you shaking your head there. Did you want to start us off?
KM: Sure, I can. What I say all the time is you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And that is so critical in this work. I think all things would work together for the good, even if it didn’t feel good. It’s good to know. It’s good to expose. It’s good to know exactly where your organization stands. And then, what do you do with that information? And then I think you also allow yourself a little bit of grace there. You’ve exposed a lot. You know, people are uncomfortable. People are vulnerable. People are transparent. People are being authentic. And so now what do you do with that information? And you move at the pace of trust. You take your time. And you just do what you can until you’ve reached the goal. But not talking about it or protecting the feelings really doesn’t move the work forward. Sometimes you have to go home bothered by something that happened. You have to go to bed upset at how something transpired but that should give you motivation to kind of move it forward.
MM: OK, we have been working with you for a while. (Laughs.) And that moving at the speed of trust, I love that! I love to hear you say that. I mean, we always say it, but it’s great to hear you say it as well, because it is the truth of the matter. That’s why we, you know, talk about client partners and a partnership because we really do have to work with you very closely and we get to know you fairly well. Absolutely.
Zach, anything that you want to add to that?
ZS: What I wanted to say is to second Kellie’s thoughts there and to have people lean into that uncomfortableness and then know that this too may be slow starting but it will snowball, and those baby steps will eventually lead to a run. And I know that it took a bit of effort for Erie to get to that point too, even as much work as we had put in before the committee started and as the committee got rolling. But I think we’ve really started to make leaps and bounds and it’s starting to truly pay off as we keep moving forward.
MM: OK, Lisa?
LG: I was just aware in that question of something that Amber is asking for is for other people to be ready and, you know, how do you cultivate that within an organization? And that is something I think that you can ask of people is you can say — you can bring it forward. We need to move this further. And then also, I’m aware of, by the way that Amber described that organization that there can be some power dynamics there that could really be speaking truth to power and fear around how will power respond? And so part of what I would recommend is particularly in relation to doing work with white people, which is a part of something that I try to do through our work with Morten Group and is specifically help white people understand our roles in doing DEI and specifically racial equity work. And I think sometimes it’s really important to say explicitly that you understand, that you feel, maybe you can explicitly say you aren’t sure if everyone feels ready to do it and that you understand that but that from your perspective things need to move and change and keep unfolding and moving forward. And saying it out loud, that it feels risky, might be a way to put it out there into the room for other people, for white people in power to recognize that bringing this forward feels risky, and that says something about the organization.
MM: All right. Thank you. Thank you.
We have one question left and this is a question also that will be the homework assignment, if you will, for the FIRE Grant. So this is from Tiffany in Atlanta: “We are about to start exploring a DEI action plan and know that the road ahead is long but fruitful. What are some of the things we can do to prepare for this work? What are some conversations we can have with staff? Should we be doing any kind of assessment before engaging a consultant?” (Laughs.) “We want to do this right, and also we know we can’t jump in without having done some homework beforehand. Any thoughts are appreciated.”
So I’m going to ask the — our Erie friends again, if you were starting this over, is there work that you would do beforehand? Is there something that you would have changed about how you came into the process? How did you get ready, if you will, for the work?
Who would like to respond to that? Lee? OK, go right ahead.
LF: Well, maybe I could start us off here, but I just think it was just so critical early on to put the ear to the ground and listen and to do it formally, where people could provide feedback without really necessarily knowing who they were. In other words, the survey that was done early on. I would just say that that was critical and formational. Is that a word, formational? It was critical!
MM: (Laughs.)
LF: And that allowed us to kind of build some things that I think we see in the planning later on, down the road.
MM: Absolutely. Absolutely.
LF: And I don’t know if Kellie or Zach want to react to that, but it’s hard to kind of think back all those months and —
MM: Years.
LF: — over a year, whatever it was, back to that —
MM: It’s over two years, Lee. (Laughs.) It’s over two years.
LF: — over two years; there we go — to the survey, because that really gave us some foundational knowledge there about our organization, stuff that we kind of know was true but some things that we didn’t know either.
MM: And we find that it’s helpful to have an external party collecting that data and, you know, it just gives it a different kind of (depthfulness ?), then, when you’re asking yourself — even if you were doing an exit interview from someone leaving the organization. There are just some things that people will say at an interview or tell us in a survey that they might not say directly to someone on staff.
Anything from Kellie or Zach to add to that?
KM: You know, I was thinking or trying to go back and I would agree that the survey was really helpful, and me, also having a one-on-one with somebody from The Morten Group to just kind of talk about my experience at Erie at that time was very — I guess I want to say it was rewarding for me because it let me know that Erie cared what I thought about and I wasn’t just, you know, another employee number 507 — (laughs) — or whatever, and I have no idea if that’s my employee number or not. But I’m just saying, you know, it really helped with understanding that Erie was determined to really start this work, and of course, no one knew two years ago what would happen in 2020, and not just with the social unrest but also with COVID, you know, and how that affects the populations in which we serve. And I think our response to that has been crucial.
I think one thing that we did well, and I’m not saying that that’s something that all organizations may not be doing, but the fact that we made this — we spoke of this often. This wasn’t just an email. We announced it in any kind of group setting that we had, from the leadership all the way down to our all-staff meetings. They knew about the work that we were doing and we really kind of publicized how important it was for everybody to kind of voice their opinion in it.
MM: Wonderful.
So if you’re going to apply for the FIRE Grant, it’s important that you listen to this question again. Consider this question that our third listener, Tiffany, asked and the conversation that we’ve had this evening. Think about this when you’re uploading your materials and finishing off the application and answer the question, What has your organization done to prepare for this work? What has your organization done to prepare for racial equity, access, diversity, and inclusion work? What steps have been taken? Have you had an assessment done, either internally or by an external consultant? Have you discussed this journey with your staff?
So on the application, there will be a text box labeled “Gathering Ground Response,” and please answer this question in that box when you are ready to complete your application. And we will look forward to your answers.
So believe it or not that we’re coming to a close, and as we close, I’d love for you just to give me a sentence or two about — and I’m going to say a sentence, not “or two.” (Laughs.) Tell me why this work is important to you and/or what you’re looking forward to. So one or the other: Why the work is important or what you’re looking forward to.
And for Avi and Lisa, I certainly want to hear why you think this work is important and why you do it.
So we’re going to start with you, Avi. (Laughs.)
AB: No pressure, Mary.
MM: None. None. None. (Laughs.)
AB: You know, speaking candidly, the first thing that came to mind is this work is important because I want this world to be a better place for my child. I don’t want her to have to navigate a lot of the things that I had to navigate. And I think that it is, you know, part of my responsibility. Right? This is — this service is the rent we pay for living. If anyone remembers who I’m quoting there. Mary —
MM: Marian Wright Edelman.
AB: Thank you. As Marian Wright Edelman said, service is the rent we pay for living. And so I feel like I have a responsibility to help to create equity in this world.
MM: Anyone from Erie? Yes. Did you want to — oh, were you just giving a thumb’s up, Lee, or did you want to go next? (Laughs.)
KM: I’ll go next.
MM: OK, Kellie.
KM: Avi, you say what I was going to say. If I had to sum it up in once sentence, this work is important to me because our lives depend on it.
MM: All right.
Zach?
ZS: I would mirror Avi’s comments about kids, having three myself. You know, I want each of them to have a successively better future than the one that I inherited. And knowing with as much work as I’ve put into it, I’m looking forward to doing more work and expanding my own knowledge, for my own sake and not just this.
MM: Wonderful.
Lee?
LF: (I’m to ?) imagine flipping the coin and thinking of our organization without this work and then realizing that what it gives me personally, the work, and I hope it gives our organization, is blue sky, is — you know, to break away from the ideas that — inherent in our society that can hold us down and to let us rise and see some blue sky. And that’s so refreshing. The sky’s not always going to be blue. That said, clearing some blue sky feels really good, especially in these days.
MM: Wonderful.
And one final point from you, Lisa?
LG: I do this work because I really want other people to experience some of what I have been able to begin experiencing for myself, which is really authentic self and connections with other people when I can let the way I’ve learned to be in the world get out of the way. That’s why.
MM: Excellent.
Thank you all so much. We want to thank our guests from Erie Family Health Centers, Lee, Kellie, and Zach, and of course, I want to thank the folks I get to work with every day, Avi and Lisa.
Please make sure that you go to eriefamilyhealth.org for more information about the services at Erie Family Health Centers.
And please don’t forget that the applications for the FIRE Grant are due March 15th at 11:59 (p.m.) Central Time. We are not joking. But send any questions you might have to admin@mortengroup.com; that’s m-o-r-t-e-n group dot com.
Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of “Gathering Ground.” Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I’m Mary Morten. This has been another episode of “Gathering Ground.” Until next time.